Date   

Re: ADMIN: Etherbun, and the cost thereof

BenBun'sMom
 

Three months since this request, could we have an update or interim report as to donations received?  Is more needed, or was the goal met, surpassed?  Thanks.


On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 9:15 PM mark via groups.io <mark318318=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Dear Etherbun Community,

As you know, due to negative changes at Yahoo Groups we moved Etherbun to the new platform, Groups.io.
After a year of experience with it, most if not all of us agree that Groups.io is superior to Yahoo in both features and performance.
We don't regret the move at all.

Unfortunately, for a group the size of Etherbun (over 4,400 members as of today), Groups.io is not free.
It is a full-time job for one or more people to write the software, rent and manage the servers, and deal with issues.
This costs money.

Last year, We The Moderators shelled out to make the move possible.
The cost was $110.00 for the group.

Going forward, we think it's fair to ask those who are financially able to help share the cost.
Given the number of active members, it would take relatively few small donations.
Eleven members donating $10 apiece would fund the group for a year.

We realize that some members may not be able to afford to help.
Especially given the events of 2020 - the political turmoil, an unprecedented pandemic and the resulting recession, we know that many people are struggling to pay for things like rent, food, and veterinary care for their buns.
We are not asking, and do not expect, members in such a situation to donate - please do not if it would cause you financial pain.
But if you are able, and use the group on a regular basis, please consider it.
The Moderators will be chipping in.

Our goal this year is the cost of the past year and the coming year's fees - $220.00 in total.

We will run the donation process as follows:
  • The PayPal account of Dana Krempels' (the owner and co-creator of Etherbun) HARE (Houserabbit Adoption Rescue and Education) group will be used to collect the donations, which will then reimburse the moderator who paid the group fee. HARE is a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.
  • For the near future (next few... weeks? months?) we will be sending out periodic ADMIN reminder messages.
  • If we reach our goal, we will say so and stop bugging you.
  • Any excess funds for a given year will be saved for the next year.
  • We will inform the group of the results -  the amount raised, how it was used, and amount remaining.
  • Note that due to PayPal fees ($0.30 + 2.2% of the donation), the net amount raised will be slightly less than the amount donated.
To donate:
  • Browse to the HARE donation link, http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/donate.html
  • Click the "PayPal - Donate now" button.
  • You may donate with either your PayPal account, or if you do not have one, a credit card. Enter a dollar amount and click the appropriate button.
  • Delete the text that says "Add special instructions to the seller" and replace it with "Etherbun" (no quotes) so that Dana's accounting minions know what the donation is for.
  • Fill in the rest of the required information.
In the future, we will either repeat this process yearly, or set the group up to automatically send periodic (monthly ? quarterly?) ADMIN messages with reminders about things like the group guidelines, and include a small note asking for donations. We haven't decided yet, but it will depend on our results this year and member's preferences.

If you have any questions, please direct them to Etherbun management, at: main+owner@etherbun.groups.io.
.
Thanks to all the members for being a part of the group.
And of course, the bunnies thank you.

-mark for EBAC


Re: Peeing

James Wilson
 

He was probably referring to a rabbit raising their torso with their rear legs to pee.

James


Re: [EXTERNAL] [Etherbun Main] Peeing

David L. Fisher
 

I had one male that was never neutered and he never lifted his leg.  The only reason I can think of for a bun to lift his leg while peeing would be if his foot was getting wet, which means an issue with the litterbox setup. 



On 1/23/2021 10:59 PM, hunhare wrote:
No, bunnies don't lift their legs to pee.  That vet must be a dog vet masquerading as a rabbit vet!  😆😆😆

Dana

Dana Krempels, PhD

Senior Lecturer

Department of Biology

University of Miami




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of Leslie B via groups.io <lesliebrassell@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 12:28 PM
To: Etherbun <main@etherbun.groups.io>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Etherbun Main] Peeing
 
CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. DO NOT CLICK ON LINKS or OPEN ATTACHMENTS unless you know and trust the sender.

Has anyone ever seen a rabbit lift his leg to pee? I was reading the “ask a vet” section on Oxbow’s website. The vet was talking about litter training. He said, “ If they happen to lift their leg or “get into position” when they are not in their litter box, simply say “No,” and gently herd or place them in the litter box.”    I have never seen this or read about it anywhere else.
Thanks,
Leslie


Re: [EXTERNAL] [Etherbun Main] Peeing

Leslie B
 

😂😂 Thanks! Those are my thoughts exactly!
Leslie


Re: [EXTERNAL] [Etherbun Main] Peeing

hunhare
 

Unless it was Micah.  Then  I think he probably just had a little glitch.  🙂


Dana

Dana Krempels, PhD

Senior Lecturer

Department of Biology

University of Miami




From: Krempels, Dana M <dana@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 10:59 PM
To: Etherbun <main@etherbun.groups.io>; lesliebrassell@... <lesliebrassell@...>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] [Etherbun Main] Peeing
 
No, bunnies don't lift their legs to pee.  That vet must be a dog vet masquerading as a rabbit vet!  😆😆😆

Dana

Dana Krempels, PhD

Senior Lecturer

Department of Biology

University of Miami




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of Leslie B via groups.io <lesliebrassell@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 12:28 PM
To: Etherbun <main@etherbun.groups.io>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Etherbun Main] Peeing
 
CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. DO NOT CLICK ON LINKS or OPEN ATTACHMENTS unless you know and trust the sender.

Has anyone ever seen a rabbit lift his leg to pee? I was reading the “ask a vet” section on Oxbow’s website. The vet was talking about litter training. He said, “ If they happen to lift their leg or “get into position” when they are not in their litter box, simply say “No,” and gently herd or place them in the litter box.”    I have never seen this or read about it anywhere else.
Thanks,
Leslie


Re: [EXTERNAL] [Etherbun Main] Peeing

hunhare
 

No, bunnies don't lift their legs to pee.  That vet must be a dog vet masquerading as a rabbit vet!  😆😆😆

Dana

Dana Krempels, PhD

Senior Lecturer

Department of Biology

University of Miami




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of Leslie B via groups.io <lesliebrassell@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 12:28 PM
To: Etherbun <main@etherbun.groups.io>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Etherbun Main] Peeing
 
CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. DO NOT CLICK ON LINKS or OPEN ATTACHMENTS unless you know and trust the sender.

Has anyone ever seen a rabbit lift his leg to pee? I was reading the “ask a vet” section on Oxbow’s website. The vet was talking about litter training. He said, “ If they happen to lift their leg or “get into position” when they are not in their litter box, simply say “No,” and gently herd or place them in the litter box.”    I have never seen this or read about it anywhere else.
Thanks,
Leslie


Peeing

Leslie B
 

Has anyone ever seen a rabbit lift his leg to pee? I was reading the “ask a vet” section on Oxbow’s website. The vet was talking about litter training. He said, “ If they happen to lift their leg or “get into position” when they are not in their litter box, simply say “No,” and gently herd or place them in the litter box.”    I have never seen this or read about it anywhere else.
Thanks,
Leslie


Careful - US markets, raw butternut squash recalls

BenBun'sMom
 

In case you feed butternut squash to your rabbits, be aware there are recalls in US markets ... https://efoodalert.com/2021/01/20/recalls-and-alerts-january-17-20-2021/  Listeria the culprit this time.


Re: USPS western brush rabbit stamp

Deborah Beal
 

Love it🐇♥️🐇💗🐇

Deborah 
Lucy & Zoe
Maurice & Leo
Ollie Cat

On Jan 11, 2021, at 6:01 PM, Chris Norlund <norlund.chris@...> wrote:


Hopefully, as they release that lovely new stamp, there is mention of the peril that ALL rabbits are facing right now. This is one of the species of rabbits that is facing extinction as RVHD2 is ripping through the US. 

There is a refuge in Calif that has a small population of the Riparian Brush rabbits, where some just recently were painstakingly captured, inoculated, and released--- in hopes of saving that species.  Cutting it close as the virus is actively moving and spreading in southern Calif.  

Please follow the updates on the virus, which states it is in, and inoculation opportunities for your pet rabbits.  Indoor rabbits are only marginally safer than ones that are kept outdoors. Many of the outbreaks of domestic rabbits actually STARTED indoors, ironically. 

Though it's a longshot, it is possible that if we get high percentage of our domestic rabbits vaccinated, that we can help slow or reduce the ravages on the wild rabbits in our areas too, by surrounding them with a wall of inoculated rabbits.  

So much to lose if we don't proactively take all safeguard measures possible. 

Protect not only yourselves right now, but your rabbits too.

Chris

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:12 AM BenBun'sMom <lloydse@...> wrote:

It's the 20 cent additional ounce stamp, not the first class Forever rate, but still ... nice to use.  Lovely art, pencil and watercolor.

image.png


Re: USPS western brush rabbit stamp

Chris Norlund
 

Hopefully, as they release that lovely new stamp, there is mention of the peril that ALL rabbits are facing right now. This is one of the species of rabbits that is facing extinction as RVHD2 is ripping through the US. 

There is a refuge in Calif that has a small population of the Riparian Brush rabbits, where some just recently were painstakingly captured, inoculated, and released--- in hopes of saving that species.  Cutting it close as the virus is actively moving and spreading in southern Calif.  

Please follow the updates on the virus, which states it is in, and inoculation opportunities for your pet rabbits.  Indoor rabbits are only marginally safer than ones that are kept outdoors. Many of the outbreaks of domestic rabbits actually STARTED indoors, ironically. 

Though it's a longshot, it is possible that if we get high percentage of our domestic rabbits vaccinated, that we can help slow or reduce the ravages on the wild rabbits in our areas too, by surrounding them with a wall of inoculated rabbits.  

So much to lose if we don't proactively take all safeguard measures possible. 

Protect not only yourselves right now, but your rabbits too.

Chris


On Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:12 AM BenBun'sMom <lloydse@...> wrote:

It's the 20 cent additional ounce stamp, not the first class Forever rate, but still ... nice to use.  Lovely art, pencil and watercolor.

image.png


USPS western brush rabbit stamp

BenBun'sMom
 


It's the 20 cent additional ounce stamp, not the first class Forever rate, but still ... nice to use.  Lovely art, pencil and watercolor.




Re: low calcium veg for bladder stone bunny

Emprins
 

Thanks for this wealth of info, Brenda! Will store this away in case either of my little guys have stones or bladder issues. Cheers!

Emma



On Dec 23, 2020 at 3:19 PM, <Brenda B Delaney via groups.io> wrote:

Did you get the stones tested to see which kind they were?  There are several different types that rabbits can get, so if you know which kind then it might help determine how he got them.

My 8 year old holland lop, Frodo, had a bladder stone this June.  He didn’t seem to have any indications of bladder sludge so it was a big surprise to me.  He wasn’t eating and acting well so the vet did and X-ray and discovered it.  I also saw a holistic vet who recommends a chinese medicine formula called “Amber Stone Transforming Formula created by Jake Paul Fratkin for bladder stones; she says it works in cats and other animals who get stones from low urine pH ( oxalate stones?).  I didn’t use it  so I can’t say if it works.  What worked for us was a few weeks of cold laser treatments and subcutaneous fluids and/or a mighty seizure during the pre-op for his bladder stone surgery — which cancelled his surgery but also may have expelled the stone.  We don’t know exactly when it disappeared, but it did.  

Some people say he got it because his urine pH was too high due to too many greens.  He doesn’t usually get many greens though and his urine pH has been 8 to 9 or 10 according to pH strips.  I took him to Cornell Veterinary College and Hospital, where the chief of Exotics took care of him.  He thinks it wasn’t diet related, but rather exercise and lack of water related.  He says wild rabbits don’t get bladder stones because they are running constantly and it jiggles the contents of the bladder to keep any sediments from forming into stones.  So he suggested lots of excercise and/or jiggling Frodo’s bladder regularly.  

He also prescribed something he uses with rabbits with bladder sludge or stones, or when rabbits have bladder surgery because that itself can cause stones due to the inflammation of the lining:  Potassium citrate (V)  100 mg/ml.  I got it compounded at a local pharmacy with banana flavoring. For a 4 pound rabbit I was to give 0.5ml by mouth twice a day.    He said to give it to Frodo if the urine pH falls BELOW 8 or if I see urine sludge or if sludge shows up on X-rays.  He said to get follow up X-rays at 3 months and 6 months to see if the stone or sludge returns.  Besides not giving Alfalfa hay or too many treats, he wasn’t focused on diet as the cause.

I can look up my notes if you need more info.

Brenda


Re: low calcium veg for bladder stone bunny

dustbunnysmom
 

Hi Brenda and everyone,

My Samantha Jane has been suffering from chronic sludge since September.  She has a sensitive gut, 9 years old, and can no longer eat the Oxbow Urinary tabs due to horrible mushy poop.  She has been getting sub- q fluids once a day every time the sludge builds up again.  Fluids will be given 5 days in a row.  She is fine for about two weeks and then the sludge rebuilds.  Because of her gut issues she gets unlimited Timothy and orchard hay.  Two Oxbow Joint Support tabs a day (almost 7 pound bunny).  My vets don’t think it’s diet related.  I see where your vet prescribed Potassium citrate (V).  Can you tell me more about it.  

Losing my mind!  Thank you, Karen 


On Dec 23, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Brenda B Delaney via groups.io <bennettbs@...> wrote:


Did you get the stones tested to see which kind they were?  There are several different types that rabbits can get, so if you know which kind then it might help determine how he got them.

My 8 year old holland lop, Frodo, had a bladder stone this June.  He didn’t seem to have any indications of bladder sludge so it was a big surprise to me.  He wasn’t eating and acting well so the vet did and X-ray and discovered it.  I also saw a holistic vet who recommends a chinese medicine formula called “Amber Stone Transforming Formula created by Jake Paul Fratkin for bladder stones; she says it works in cats and other animals who get stones from low urine pH ( oxalate stones?).  I didn’t use it  so I can’t say if it works.  What worked for us was a few weeks of cold laser treatments and subcutaneous fluids and/or a mighty seizure during the pre-op for his bladder stone surgery — which cancelled his surgery but also may have expelled the stone.  We don’t know exactly when it disappeared, but it did.  

Some people say he got it because his urine pH was too high due to too many greens.  He doesn’t usually get many greens though and his urine pH has been 8 to 9 or 10 according to pH strips.  I took him to Cornell Veterinary College and Hospital, where the chief of Exotics took care of him.  He thinks it wasn’t diet related, but rather exercise and lack of water related.  He says wild rabbits don’t get bladder stones because they are running constantly and it jiggles the contents of the bladder to keep any sediments from forming into stones.  So he suggested lots of excercise and/or jiggling Frodo’s bladder regularly.  

He also prescribed something he uses with rabbits with bladder sludge or stones, or when rabbits have bladder surgery because that itself can cause stones due to the inflammation of the lining:  Potassium citrate (V)  100 mg/ml.  I got it compounded at a local pharmacy with banana flavoring. For a 4 pound rabbit I was to give 0.5ml by mouth twice a day.    He said to give it to Frodo if the urine pH falls BELOW 8 or if I see urine sludge or if sludge shows up on X-rays.  He said to get follow up X-rays at 3 months and 6 months to see if the stone or sludge returns.  Besides not giving Alfalfa hay or too many treats, he wasn’t focused on diet as the cause.

I can look up my notes if you need more info.

Brenda


Re: GIARDIA ELISA TEST : HELP

Emprins
 

Hey there!

 I am not a vet and only took a few parasitology courses in college and am a slightly neurotic bunny lover, so please do not take any of my input as medical advice.

 Are your flemmies still having symptoms? Any diarrhea or unformed stool? It's my understanding that it not uncommon for rabbits to harbor giardia in their gut flora but giardiasis (illness caused by giardia) is much less common. If they are asymptomatic, you could end up doing more harm than good with a strong antiparasitic, as bunny tummies are so sensitive. I personally avoid taking metronidazole orally as a human because of its effects on gut flora. 

It's also my understanding that metronidazole is the first line treatment for bunnies with giardiasis and that fenbendazole is primarily used to treat helminths (worms). I wish I knew more about how they compare for giardia treatment in rabbits or anything about dosage but I don't. I would press your vet about why they are prescribing fenbendazole rather than metronidazole. 

You're right about the ELISA test being positive and testing for eggs and parasites being negative indicating that they could simply have the antigens and not a current infection but I know little about the rate of false negatives for this kind of testing. 

Are your bunnies adults? They seem a little light for flemmies. Our flemmie boy is maybe 9 lbs now as an adult but he's also adopted so we don't know if he might be a mix. I only ask because diarrhea could decrease absorption of nutrients and I know we were worried about our little guy when he was very light for his approximate age. Since they're big guys, malnutrition during development could lead to weak bones and potential injury. 

We clean the litterbox 2x/ week so 4x/day sounds like a lot of work and I'm impressed with your dedication to your new bun friends! I hope your baby giants - we call our flemmie, Philip, our "baby giant" and Eleanor, his holland lop partner, our "giant baby" 😆 - are feeling better! Wishing you the best during this stressful time and may the new year ring in good health and fortune for you and your buns!

Emma





On Dec 30, 2020 at 2:24 PM, <Romina> wrote:

Hi Folks

We rescued 2 buns. Long story, They're flemmies and about 9/10lbs (for adoption too)
Treated them for coccidia and giardia.
We knocked out the coccidia but the retest shows the below for Giardia. If you understand these tests please confirm the below or correct if it's incorrect.
Appreciate. I did call the lab and spoke to someone that seemed knowledgeable but want to double-check to be sure.

Your answers greatly appreciated.

The Giardia Elisa test said positive 
(I suppose that means there are antigens (or reactions to current giardia organisms)
Ova and Parasites negative
Its my understanding that while they may not have actually parasites they may be in the shedding stage. They have antigens and hence the Elisa came back positive.
And hence they need to be treated.

One vet prescribed .25 per 10lb bun daily of  panacur(fenbendazole) but in the past another vet prescribed much more metronidazole and for a longer period of time, like 3 weeks.
I did not have confidence in the .25 Panacur for 5 days. Is panacur so much more potent that a smaller amount of it is enough to knock out the Giardia? 
Does that seem like the correct dosage. 
A 2nd vet would prescribe .8 two times a day for 2 weeks.

I know the buns can reinfect themselves and you have to keep the area free of fecal matters. I have knocked out Giardia about 5 times prior  - changing the litter boxes like 3 to 4 times daily and keeping them fastidiously free of poops.
I just don't remember how much metronidazole we used. 

Thanks in advance and wishing us a better year ahead.




GIARDIA ELISA TEST : HELP

Romina
 

Hi Folks

We rescued 2 buns. Long story, They're flemmies and about 9/10lbs (for adoption too)
Treated them for coccidia and giardia.
We knocked out the coccidia but the retest shows the below for Giardia. If you understand these tests please confirm the below or correct if it's incorrect.
Appreciate. I did call the lab and spoke to someone that seemed knowledgeable but want to double-check to be sure.

Your answers greatly appreciated.

The Giardia Elisa test said positive 
(I suppose that means there are antigens (or reactions to current giardia organisms)
Ova and Parasites negative
Its my understanding that while they may not have actually parasites they may be in the shedding stage. They have antigens and hence the Elisa came back positive.
And hence they need to be treated.

One vet prescribed .25 per 10lb bun daily of  panacur(fenbendazole) but in the past another vet prescribed much more metronidazole and for a longer period of time, like 3 weeks.
I did not have confidence in the .25 Panacur for 5 days. Is panacur so much more potent that a smaller amount of it is enough to knock out the Giardia? 
Does that seem like the correct dosage. 
A 2nd vet would prescribe .8 two times a day for 2 weeks.

I know the buns can reinfect themselves and you have to keep the area free of fecal matters. I have knocked out Giardia about 5 times prior  - changing the litter boxes like 3 to 4 times daily and keeping them fastidiously free of poops.
I just don't remember how much metronidazole we used. 

Thanks in advance and wishing us a better year ahead.




Re: low calcium veg for bladder stone bunny

wendyandrayzer
 

I hear that calcium metabolism in rabbits is poorly understood, and many experts say that oxalates are the culprit rather than calcium.  Best to avoid spinach, Swiss chard, beet greens, and possibly dandelions, all of which are high oxalate.


Re: low calcium veg for bladder stone bunny

Brenda B Delaney
 

Did you get the stones tested to see which kind they were?  There are several different types that rabbits can get, so if you know which kind then it might help determine how he got them.

My 8 year old holland lop, Frodo, had a bladder stone this June.  He didn’t seem to have any indications of bladder sludge so it was a big surprise to me.  He wasn’t eating and acting well so the vet did and X-ray and discovered it.  I also saw a holistic vet who recommends a chinese medicine formula called “Amber Stone Transforming Formula created by Jake Paul Fratkin for bladder stones; she says it works in cats and other animals who get stones from low urine pH ( oxalate stones?).  I didn’t use it  so I can’t say if it works.  What worked for us was a few weeks of cold laser treatments and subcutaneous fluids and/or a mighty seizure during the pre-op for his bladder stone surgery — which cancelled his surgery but also may have expelled the stone.  We don’t know exactly when it disappeared, but it did.  

Some people say he got it because his urine pH was too high due to too many greens.  He doesn’t usually get many greens though and his urine pH has been 8 to 9 or 10 according to pH strips.  I took him to Cornell Veterinary College and Hospital, where the chief of Exotics took care of him.  He thinks it wasn’t diet related, but rather exercise and lack of water related.  He says wild rabbits don’t get bladder stones because they are running constantly and it jiggles the contents of the bladder to keep any sediments from forming into stones.  So he suggested lots of excercise and/or jiggling Frodo’s bladder regularly.  

He also prescribed something he uses with rabbits with bladder sludge or stones, or when rabbits have bladder surgery because that itself can cause stones due to the inflammation of the lining:  Potassium citrate (V)  100 mg/ml.  I got it compounded at a local pharmacy with banana flavoring. For a 4 pound rabbit I was to give 0.5ml by mouth twice a day.    He said to give it to Frodo if the urine pH falls BELOW 8 or if I see urine sludge or if sludge shows up on X-rays.  He said to get follow up X-rays at 3 months and 6 months to see if the stone or sludge returns.  Besides not giving Alfalfa hay or too many treats, he wasn’t focused on diet as the cause.

I can look up my notes if you need more info.

Brenda


Re: Bloody urine after bladder flush

angela95010@gmail.com
 

Yes, I have metacam and I can tell it's effective. The vet who did the flush is off for a few days, that's why I posted here, because I know there's very knowledgeable participants in this groups. The bloody urine stopped a few hours after the flush, then started again the next day, then stopped again. I just wanted to see if it was normal to have bleeding 48 hours after the flush. Thank you for your reassuring response as to your own human experience!

On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 4:02 AM Thumpers Mama <jmiller111391@...> wrote:
I can tell you I've had a cystoscopy myself and was peeing blood for about 5-7 days afterwards. It also was very painful to pee. I don't know for our bunnies specifically but I assume it would also irritate their urinary tract as well. Is your bunny getting metacam? I hope you get some answers soon. Maybe ask your vet how long to expect this?


Re: Bloody urine after bladder flush

JG
 

My rabbit Tokki had one yesterday… and his urine is already looking much clearer today, so hopefully not too long.  but this is my first experience with it.

vibes sent to your bun.

Julie

On 22 Dec 2020, at 20:19, angela95010@... wrote:

My bun just went through his first ever bladder flush procedure for a bad case of sludge. I was told that I could expect to see bloody urine. Does anyone have any experience with how long this can last after the procedure? Hours? Days? Weeks?


Re: Bloody urine after bladder flush

JG
 

Yes, he’s on 10 days of metacam.   I can already see the difference in his pee.. yesterday it was bloody, today it looks much clearer.  Thanks.

On 23 Dec 2020, at 06:02, Thumpers Mama <jmiller111391@...> wrote:

I can tell you I've had a cystoscopy myself and was peeing blood for about 5-7 days afterwards. It also was very painful to pee. I don't know for our bunnies specifically but I assume it would also irritate their urinary tract as well. Is your bunny getting metacam? I hope you get some answers soon. Maybe ask your vet how long to expect this?

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