Topics

[EXTERNAL] Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy


hunhare
 

We've all hear the 85% chance of developing uterine cancer by age three for bunnies.  A few years back, some of us thought it would be a good idea to find the source of that number, since the House Rabbit Society had been citing it, too.

And we could not find any source at all for that figure. 

It could be correct.  But it also could be way off.  We just don't know.

After we discovered there was no real source for the 85% number, we just started saying, "Unspayed female rabbits have a very high risk of developing uterine cancer, even  as young as the age of three."

Just to make sure we're being accurate.  Science!  🙂


Dana

Dana Krempels, PhD

Senior Lecturer

Department of Biology

University of Miami




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher via groups.io <dlf@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 2:55 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; beckyatthebeach@... <beckyatthebeach@...>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 
CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. DO NOT CLICK ON LINKS or OPEN ATTACHMENTS unless you know and trust the sender.

Actually, it was my understanding that unspayed females have an 85% chance of developing reproductive cancer by age 3, and Monty is at least twice that age.

I'm currently more concerned about her appetite, which seems to be affected by some gas - I've tried giving simethicone a couple times, and it seems to have reducred the amount of gurgling, but she's still acting a little off.  She may be going back to the vet sooner than we think if that doesn't improve.

Dave




On 2/28/2021 9:59 AM, Rebecca Rose wrote:
I realized, sadly, after I made the remark about not neutering my first bunny (rescued when he was 10+) that I was STILL thinking of Monty as a boy!  My apologies, sweet Monty.

I, too, would lean toward spaying her now.  Similar to many of you, I once rescued 2 girls together (not sisters, but bonded) - as is often the case, their history was pretty much unknown - but they were likely between 4 and 5 years old.  After I'd gotten them settled in and examined for other issues, I went ahead and had them both spayed.  The vet actually called me, mid-surgery on one, to ask if she could possibly be pregnant (me:  NO!!), because she had a large mass in her uterus.  Vet removed it (I believe there were smaller areas of concern as well), and that bun is now between 8 and 9 y.o. and still doing great.  Although all of our experiences are "anecdotal", together they seem to indicate a strong likelihood of an unspayed female developing reproductive cancer in "middle age"- and actual statistics seem to bear this out too.

-Becky-




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2021 4:03 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; bustercharlie@... <bustercharlie@...>; karen@... <karen@...>
Subject: Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 

Well, I must admit - I was not intending on having Monty spayed at this point (not wanting to introduce any new stress) but the cancer issue has been on my mind.  My first bunny, Q-Tip, was never neutered (my vet and I chose not to put him through the st4ess and risk) and he lived happily enough, but I have no idea what killed him (no necropsy) or whether being intact had anything to do with it.  Sigh.

Now I'm giving serious consideration to having a spay done, just to be sure she's okay now and in the future.  I've had older bunnies that were fixed later in life before I adopted them, so I have a lot to think about.

Dave


On 2/26/2021 10:43 AM, Meg Brown wrote:
  I agree with Chris snd Karen.   My Rosie was almost 6 when she was spayed and found to have uterine cancer.   It did not spread.    Rosie lived a wonderful life, (Chris, you will remember her from my FB posts)
    She passed peacefully at home at 13.5 years old.   She was paraplegic during her last year, but so alert and loving.  My cat, Cowboy, loved being near her as well.

     Bella was found to have ovarian cancer when she was spayed as an elder.  
Our very skilled vet removed the tumors.  Bella lived for another 5 years and passed from kidney disease.

    I rescued a ten yo male with obvious testicular cancer.   He was neutered and recovered beautifully.

With all of these elder buns (and others over 5 yo), my vet and I agreed to go forward with their surgeries.   Their bloodwork was WNL.   We felt that the risk of cancer and other issues like pyometra was too great.
      
I always enjoy hearing about your sweet Monty🐰💓
   Sincerely,
     Meg

On Feb 26, 2021, at 10:25 AM, christofur2 <karen@...> wrote:

I totally agree with Chris.   It is not too late to have her spayed.   We do not know the ages of most of the rabbits coming into the rescue and many of them are mature females.   As long as they are otherwise healthy, do not hesitate to spay.   One older female,  although nothing abnormal was found during the spay,  developed mammary cancer a few years later.   Luckily it was caught early and removed,  but if we decided not to spay her,  she would have had a very different outcome. 
Karen


David L. Fisher
 

The original number I encountered was actually a 6 out of 7 chance, which translates to about 85% (technically, 85.714285 repeating) and I'm not entirely sure where I first saw that figure, so...  According to "Rabbit Health in the 21st Century (2nd Edition)" by Kathy Smith, "Unspayed female rabbits have a very high incidence of ovarian or uterine cancer - as high as 80-90% by age three" (from page 32) - I think that's the most authoritative assertion as far as the bunny community is concerned.

I have a feeling another vet visit will be in order anyway, as Monty's eating is not normal - she IS eating, but only a small amount of hay, certain greens (and a couple raisins) - no grapes, no pellets, and generally not as voracious as I like to see.  I'll have blood tests done at that time to prepare for a spay.

Dave




On 2/28/2021 4:07 PM, Krempels, Dana M wrote:
We've all hear the 85% chance of developing uterine cancer by age three for bunnies.  A few years back, some of us thought it would be a good idea to find the source of that number, since the House Rabbit Society had been citing it, too.

And we could not find any source at all for that figure. 

It could be correct.  But it also could be way off.  We just don't know.

After we discovered there was no real source for the 85% number, we just started saying, "Unspayed female rabbits have a very high risk of developing uterine cancer, even  as young as the age of three."

Just to make sure we're being accurate.  Science!  🙂


Dana

Dana Krempels, PhD

Senior Lecturer

Department of Biology

University of Miami




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher via groups.io <dlf@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 2:55 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; beckyatthebeach@... <beckyatthebeach@...>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 
CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. DO NOT CLICK ON LINKS or OPEN ATTACHMENTS unless you know and trust the sender.

Actually, it was my understanding that unspayed females have an 85% chance of developing reproductive cancer by age 3, and Monty is at least twice that age.

I'm currently more concerned about her appetite, which seems to be affected by some gas - I've tried giving simethicone a couple times, and it seems to have reducred the amount of gurgling, but she's still acting a little off.  She may be going back to the vet sooner than we think if that doesn't improve.

Dave




On 2/28/2021 9:59 AM, Rebecca Rose wrote:
I realized, sadly, after I made the remark about not neutering my first bunny (rescued when he was 10+) that I was STILL thinking of Monty as a boy!  My apologies, sweet Monty.

I, too, would lean toward spaying her now.  Similar to many of you, I once rescued 2 girls together (not sisters, but bonded) - as is often the case, their history was pretty much unknown - but they were likely between 4 and 5 years old.  After I'd gotten them settled in and examined for other issues, I went ahead and had them both spayed.  The vet actually called me, mid-surgery on one, to ask if she could possibly be pregnant (me:  NO!!), because she had a large mass in her uterus.  Vet removed it (I believe there were smaller areas of concern as well), and that bun is now between 8 and 9 y.o. and still doing great.  Although all of our experiences are "anecdotal", together they seem to indicate a strong likelihood of an unspayed female developing reproductive cancer in "middle age"- and actual statistics seem to bear this out too.

-Becky-




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2021 4:03 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; bustercharlie@... <bustercharlie@...>; karen@... <karen@...>
Subject: Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 

Well, I must admit - I was not intending on having Monty spayed at this point (not wanting to introduce any new stress) but the cancer issue has been on my mind.  My first bunny, Q-Tip, was never neutered (my vet and I chose not to put him through the st4ess and risk) and he lived happily enough, but I have no idea what killed him (no necropsy) or whether being intact had anything to do with it.  Sigh.

Now I'm giving serious consideration to having a spay done, just to be sure she's okay now and in the future.  I've had older bunnies that were fixed later in life before I adopted them, so I have a lot to think about.

Dave


On 2/26/2021 10:43 AM, Meg Brown wrote:
  I agree with Chris snd Karen.   My Rosie was almost 6 when she was spayed and found to have uterine cancer.   It did not spread.    Rosie lived a wonderful life, (Chris, you will remember her from my FB posts)
    She passed peacefully at home at 13.5 years old.   She was paraplegic during her last year, but so alert and loving.  My cat, Cowboy, loved being near her as well.

     Bella was found to have ovarian cancer when she was spayed as an elder.  
Our very skilled vet removed the tumors.  Bella lived for another 5 years and passed from kidney disease.

    I rescued a ten yo male with obvious testicular cancer.   He was neutered and recovered beautifully.

With all of these elder buns (and others over 5 yo), my vet and I agreed to go forward with their surgeries.   Their bloodwork was WNL.   We felt that the risk of cancer and other issues like pyometra was too great.
      
I always enjoy hearing about your sweet Monty🐰💓
   Sincerely,
     Meg

On Feb 26, 2021, at 10:25 AM, christofur2 <karen@...> wrote:

I totally agree with Chris.   It is not too late to have her spayed.   We do not know the ages of most of the rabbits coming into the rescue and many of them are mature females.   As long as they are otherwise healthy, do not hesitate to spay.   One older female,  although nothing abnormal was found during the spay,  developed mammary cancer a few years later.   Luckily it was caught early and removed,  but if we decided not to spay her,  she would have had a very different outcome. 
Karen


hunhare
 

Yeah, but where did SHE get that figure?  Does she cite a study?

I get the feeling that somewhere back in time, someone pulled that figure out of their lower intestine, and we've been citing it ever since.

Unless we can cite an actual study, I would not use actual numbers.  Just stick to the "high risk" and all will be well.  🙂

Dana

Dana Krempels, PhD

Senior Lecturer

Department of Biology

University of Miami




From: David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 5:06 PM
To: Krempels, Dana M <dana@...>; main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; beckyatthebeach@... <beckyatthebeach@...>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 

The original number I encountered was actually a 6 out of 7 chance, which translates to about 85% (technically, 85.714285 repeating) and I'm not entirely sure where I first saw that figure, so...  According to "Rabbit Health in the 21st Century (2nd Edition)" by Kathy Smith, "Unspayed female rabbits have a very high incidence of ovarian or uterine cancer - as high as 80-90% by age three" (from page 32) - I think that's the most authoritative assertion as far as the bunny community is concerned.

I have a feeling another vet visit will be in order anyway, as Monty's eating is not normal - she IS eating, but only a small amount of hay, certain greens (and a couple raisins) - no grapes, no pellets, and generally not as voracious as I like to see.  I'll have blood tests done at that time to prepare for a spay.

Dave




On 2/28/2021 4:07 PM, Krempels, Dana M wrote:
We've all hear the 85% chance of developing uterine cancer by age three for bunnies.  A few years back, some of us thought it would be a good idea to find the source of that number, since the House Rabbit Society had been citing it, too.

And we could not find any source at all for that figure. 

It could be correct.  But it also could be way off.  We just don't know.

After we discovered there was no real source for the 85% number, we just started saying, "Unspayed female rabbits have a very high risk of developing uterine cancer, even  as young as the age of three."

Just to make sure we're being accurate.  Science!  🙂


Dana

Dana Krempels, PhD

Senior Lecturer

Department of Biology

University of Miami




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher via groups.io <dlf@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 2:55 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; beckyatthebeach@... <beckyatthebeach@...>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 
CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. DO NOT CLICK ON LINKS or OPEN ATTACHMENTS unless you know and trust the sender.

Actually, it was my understanding that unspayed females have an 85% chance of developing reproductive cancer by age 3, and Monty is at least twice that age.

I'm currently more concerned about her appetite, which seems to be affected by some gas - I've tried giving simethicone a couple times, and it seems to have reducred the amount of gurgling, but she's still acting a little off.  She may be going back to the vet sooner than we think if that doesn't improve.

Dave




On 2/28/2021 9:59 AM, Rebecca Rose wrote:
I realized, sadly, after I made the remark about not neutering my first bunny (rescued when he was 10+) that I was STILL thinking of Monty as a boy!  My apologies, sweet Monty.

I, too, would lean toward spaying her now.  Similar to many of you, I once rescued 2 girls together (not sisters, but bonded) - as is often the case, their history was pretty much unknown - but they were likely between 4 and 5 years old.  After I'd gotten them settled in and examined for other issues, I went ahead and had them both spayed.  The vet actually called me, mid-surgery on one, to ask if she could possibly be pregnant (me:  NO!!), because she had a large mass in her uterus.  Vet removed it (I believe there were smaller areas of concern as well), and that bun is now between 8 and 9 y.o. and still doing great.  Although all of our experiences are "anecdotal", together they seem to indicate a strong likelihood of an unspayed female developing reproductive cancer in "middle age"- and actual statistics seem to bear this out too.

-Becky-




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2021 4:03 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; bustercharlie@... <bustercharlie@...>; karen@... <karen@...>
Subject: Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 

Well, I must admit - I was not intending on having Monty spayed at this point (not wanting to introduce any new stress) but the cancer issue has been on my mind.  My first bunny, Q-Tip, was never neutered (my vet and I chose not to put him through the st4ess and risk) and he lived happily enough, but I have no idea what killed him (no necropsy) or whether being intact had anything to do with it.  Sigh.

Now I'm giving serious consideration to having a spay done, just to be sure she's okay now and in the future.  I've had older bunnies that were fixed later in life before I adopted them, so I have a lot to think about.

Dave


On 2/26/2021 10:43 AM, Meg Brown wrote:
  I agree with Chris snd Karen.   My Rosie was almost 6 when she was spayed and found to have uterine cancer.   It did not spread.    Rosie lived a wonderful life, (Chris, you will remember her from my FB posts)
    She passed peacefully at home at 13.5 years old.   She was paraplegic during her last year, but so alert and loving.  My cat, Cowboy, loved being near her as well.

     Bella was found to have ovarian cancer when she was spayed as an elder.  
Our very skilled vet removed the tumors.  Bella lived for another 5 years and passed from kidney disease.

    I rescued a ten yo male with obvious testicular cancer.   He was neutered and recovered beautifully.

With all of these elder buns (and others over 5 yo), my vet and I agreed to go forward with their surgeries.   Their bloodwork was WNL.   We felt that the risk of cancer and other issues like pyometra was too great.
      
I always enjoy hearing about your sweet Monty🐰💓
   Sincerely,
     Meg

On Feb 26, 2021, at 10:25 AM, christofur2 <karen@...> wrote:

I totally agree with Chris.   It is not too late to have her spayed.   We do not know the ages of most of the rabbits coming into the rescue and many of them are mature females.   As long as they are otherwise healthy, do not hesitate to spay.   One older female,  although nothing abnormal was found during the spay,  developed mammary cancer a few years later.   Luckily it was caught early and removed,  but if we decided not to spay her,  she would have had a very different outcome. 
Karen


David L. Fisher
 

I've seen that statistic cited in many places, but for all we know we're all just repeating someone's estimate.  I agree - we don't need to be numerically accurate to validate the warning that intact females are at high risk for reproductive cancer.

After all, 82% of all people know with 76% certainty that 91% of all statistics are 68% inaccurate.  :)

The only number I'm sure of is, I want to be as close to 100% sure that Monty is okay and not suffering quietly.

Dave



On 2/28/2021 5:08 PM, Krempels, Dana M wrote:
Yeah, but where did SHE get that figure?  Does she cite a study?

I get the feeling that somewhere back in time, someone pulled that figure out of their lower intestine, and we've been citing it ever since.

Unless we can cite an actual study, I would not use actual numbers.  Just stick to the "high risk" and all will be well.  🙂

Dana

Dana Krempels, PhD

Senior Lecturer

Department of Biology

University of Miami




From: David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 5:06 PM
To: Krempels, Dana M <dana@...>; main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; beckyatthebeach@... <beckyatthebeach@...>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 

The original number I encountered was actually a 6 out of 7 chance, which translates to about 85% (technically, 85.714285 repeating) and I'm not entirely sure where I first saw that figure, so...  According to "Rabbit Health in the 21st Century (2nd Edition)" by Kathy Smith, "Unspayed female rabbits have a very high incidence of ovarian or uterine cancer - as high as 80-90% by age three" (from page 32) - I think that's the most authoritative assertion as far as the bunny community is concerned.

I have a feeling another vet visit will be in order anyway, as Monty's eating is not normal - she IS eating, but only a small amount of hay, certain greens (and a couple raisins) - no grapes, no pellets, and generally not as voracious as I like to see.  I'll have blood tests done at that time to prepare for a spay.

Dave




On 2/28/2021 4:07 PM, Krempels, Dana M wrote:
We've all hear the 85% chance of developing uterine cancer by age three for bunnies.  A few years back, some of us thought it would be a good idea to find the source of that number, since the House Rabbit Society had been citing it, too.

And we could not find any source at all for that figure. 

It could be correct.  But it also could be way off.  We just don't know.

After we discovered there was no real source for the 85% number, we just started saying, "Unspayed female rabbits have a very high risk of developing uterine cancer, even  as young as the age of three."

Just to make sure we're being accurate.  Science!  🙂


Dana

Dana Krempels, PhD

Senior Lecturer

Department of Biology

University of Miami




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher via groups.io <dlf@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 2:55 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; beckyatthebeach@... <beckyatthebeach@...>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 
CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. DO NOT CLICK ON LINKS or OPEN ATTACHMENTS unless you know and trust the sender.

Actually, it was my understanding that unspayed females have an 85% chance of developing reproductive cancer by age 3, and Monty is at least twice that age.

I'm currently more concerned about her appetite, which seems to be affected by some gas - I've tried giving simethicone a couple times, and it seems to have reducred the amount of gurgling, but she's still acting a little off.  She may be going back to the vet sooner than we think if that doesn't improve.

Dave




On 2/28/2021 9:59 AM, Rebecca Rose wrote:
I realized, sadly, after I made the remark about not neutering my first bunny (rescued when he was 10+) that I was STILL thinking of Monty as a boy!  My apologies, sweet Monty.

I, too, would lean toward spaying her now.  Similar to many of you, I once rescued 2 girls together (not sisters, but bonded) - as is often the case, their history was pretty much unknown - but they were likely between 4 and 5 years old.  After I'd gotten them settled in and examined for other issues, I went ahead and had them both spayed.  The vet actually called me, mid-surgery on one, to ask if she could possibly be pregnant (me:  NO!!), because she had a large mass in her uterus.  Vet removed it (I believe there were smaller areas of concern as well), and that bun is now between 8 and 9 y.o. and still doing great.  Although all of our experiences are "anecdotal", together they seem to indicate a strong likelihood of an unspayed female developing reproductive cancer in "middle age"- and actual statistics seem to bear this out too.

-Becky-




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2021 4:03 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; bustercharlie@... <bustercharlie@...>; karen@... <karen@...>
Subject: Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 

Well, I must admit - I was not intending on having Monty spayed at this point (not wanting to introduce any new stress) but the cancer issue has been on my mind.  My first bunny, Q-Tip, was never neutered (my vet and I chose not to put him through the st4ess and risk) and he lived happily enough, but I have no idea what killed him (no necropsy) or whether being intact had anything to do with it.  Sigh.

Now I'm giving serious consideration to having a spay done, just to be sure she's okay now and in the future.  I've had older bunnies that were fixed later in life before I adopted them, so I have a lot to think about.

Dave


On 2/26/2021 10:43 AM, Meg Brown wrote:
  I agree with Chris snd Karen.   My Rosie was almost 6 when she was spayed and found to have uterine cancer.   It did not spread.    Rosie lived a wonderful life, (Chris, you will remember her from my FB posts)
    She passed peacefully at home at 13.5 years old.   She was paraplegic during her last year, but so alert and loving.  My cat, Cowboy, loved being near her as well.

     Bella was found to have ovarian cancer when she was spayed as an elder.  
Our very skilled vet removed the tumors.  Bella lived for another 5 years and passed from kidney disease.

    I rescued a ten yo male with obvious testicular cancer.   He was neutered and recovered beautifully.

With all of these elder buns (and others over 5 yo), my vet and I agreed to go forward with their surgeries.   Their bloodwork was WNL.   We felt that the risk of cancer and other issues like pyometra was too great.
      
I always enjoy hearing about your sweet Monty🐰💓
   Sincerely,
     Meg

On Feb 26, 2021, at 10:25 AM, christofur2 <karen@...> wrote:

I totally agree with Chris.   It is not too late to have her spayed.   We do not know the ages of most of the rabbits coming into the rescue and many of them are mature females.   As long as they are otherwise healthy, do not hesitate to spay.   One older female,  although nothing abnormal was found during the spay,  developed mammary cancer a few years later.   Luckily it was caught early and removed,  but if we decided not to spay her,  she would have had a very different outcome. 
Karen