Topics

Monty is NOT a good boy


David L. Fisher
 

Monty is a good girl, not a good boy.  I brought Monty to the vet this week due to a concern about a watery eye, and the vet did a full exam from head to toe, and discovered that there was never a neuter done (we never had a reason to check and assumed we knew the history), so he sexed Monty and determined that my fuzzball is a female.  There is no evidence of a spay, so Monty might still be intact, in which case we are not planning any surgery at this point - I've had Monty for almost 6 years now.

Perhaps this explains what happened with my attempts at bonding with other bunnies.  I wasn't really expecting a gender identity issue with my bunny, but... notice how I avoided the use of pronouns in reference to Monty.  Maybe I can use the term "tomboy" or something.  :)

Monty's eye is fine, no indication of anything wrong, but I wanted to err on the side of caution.

Dave


Rebecca Rose
 

Dave,

I have to say, having read your loving posts for years now, that my initial reaction to your "headline" was something like "Waddya mean Dave - of COURSE Monty is a good boy - no matter what he may have done!!!" - but I guess I should have known....definitely laughing here, and I thank you for that!!

My very first rabbit (this is back in the late 90s) was called Harriet for 10 years by my uncaring and neglectful neighbors - from whom I finally rescued this bun.  I'll never forget our first trip to the vet, when the vet got to the "undercarriage" and looked up at me and said "Um....this rabbit is a boy...".  In that instant, he became Harry.  And he lived happily with us for another 3 years, and was the sweetest, most loving bun ever.  I miss him so much.  (And I elected not to risk anesthesia for a neuter at his advanced age.)

-Becky and the Bunnies-


From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 7:01 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>
Subject: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 
Monty is a good girl, not a good boy.  I brought Monty to the vet this
week due to a concern about a watery eye, and the vet did a full exam
from head to toe, and discovered that there was never a neuter done (we
never had a reason to check and assumed we knew the history), so he
sexed Monty and determined that my fuzzball is a female.  There is no
evidence of a spay, so Monty might still be intact, in which case we are
not planning any surgery at this point - I've had Monty for almost 6
years now.

Perhaps this explains what happened with my attempts at bonding with
other bunnies.  I wasn't really expecting a gender identity issue with
my bunny, but... notice how I avoided the use of pronouns in reference
to Monty.  Maybe I can use the term "tomboy" or something.  :)

Monty's eye is fine, no indication of anything wrong, but I wanted to
err on the side of caution.

Dave







David L. Fisher
 

The folks at the vet were trying to think up a "replacement" name for Monty, but I'm not planning on changing anything - she doesn't care that Monty is more of a male's name, and there's enough "baby" and "fuzzy butt" and "squishball" and of course, "bunny rabbit" in how I talk to her.  I'm still stuck using male pronouns (force of habit) and I don't think it matters except in medical/clinical terms.

I can't imagine how your neighbors didn't realize that Harry was an intact male - that's very easy to see (at least in my experience) but if they didn't care (or were entirely clueless)... How does one not notice the "churchbells" hanging down?  Of course, you have to let the bunny be a part of the family and run around to notice that.  I'm glad you took him and gave him a good life, no matter how much time was left.  My first bunny Q-Tip was never neutered, since I adopted him at around age 5 and we decided not to put him through the ordeal.

In Monty's case, I guess we got lucky that there was no sign of reproductive cancer.  Now he/she just has to get over "being outed".  :)

Dave



On 2/20/2021 10:16 AM, Rebecca Rose wrote:
Dave,

I have to say, having read your loving posts for years now, that my initial reaction to your "headline" was something like "Waddya mean Dave - of COURSE Monty is a good boy - no matter what he may have done!!!" - but I guess I should have known....definitely laughing here, and I thank you for that!!

My very first rabbit (this is back in the late 90s) was called Harriet for 10 years by my uncaring and neglectful neighbors - from whom I finally rescued this bun.  I'll never forget our first trip to the vet, when the vet got to the "undercarriage" and looked up at me and said "Um....this rabbit is a boy...".  In that instant, he became Harry.  And he lived happily with us for another 3 years, and was the sweetest, most loving bun ever.  I miss him so much.  (And I elected not to risk anesthesia for a neuter at his advanced age.)

-Becky and the Bunnies-


From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 7:01 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>
Subject: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 
Monty is a good girl, not a good boy.  I brought Monty to the vet this
week due to a concern about a watery eye, and the vet did a full exam
from head to toe, and discovered that there was never a neuter done (we
never had a reason to check and assumed we knew the history), so he
sexed Monty and determined that my fuzzball is a female.  There is no
evidence of a spay, so Monty might still be intact, in which case we are
not planning any surgery at this point - I've had Monty for almost 6
years now.

Perhaps this explains what happened with my attempts at bonding with
other bunnies.  I wasn't really expecting a gender identity issue with
my bunny, but... notice how I avoided the use of pronouns in reference
to Monty.  Maybe I can use the term "tomboy" or something.  :)

Monty's eye is fine, no indication of anything wrong, but I wanted to
err on the side of caution.

Dave







Nancy Ainsworth
 

She could always be Montie now, Dave. 
We took in a female bun some years back who we spayed and luckily caught her uterine cancer. She had all the female plumbing (obviously) but when she died we had a necropsy done and she had male parts, too -not all that uncommon, but a surprise all the same.
I can only imagine the look on your face when you found out your boy was a girl. :) 
Nancy



-----Original Message-----
From: David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
To: main@etherbun.groups.io; beckyatthebeach@...
Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2021 4:43 pm
Subject: Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy

The folks at the vet were trying to think up a "replacement" name for Monty, but I'm not planning on changing anything - she doesn't care that Monty is more of a male's name, and there's enough "baby" and "fuzzy butt" and "squishball" and of course, "bunny rabbit" in how I talk to her.  I'm still stuck using male pronouns (force of habit) and I don't think it matters except in medical/clinical terms.
I can't imagine how your neighbors didn't realize that Harry was an intact male - that's very easy to see (at least in my experience) but if they didn't care (or were entirely clueless)... How does one not notice the "churchbells" hanging down?  Of course, you have to let the bunny be a part of the family and run around to notice that.  I'm glad you took him and gave him a good life, no matter how much time was left.  My first bunny Q-Tip was never neutered, since I adopted him at around age 5 and we decided not to put him through the ordeal.
In Monty's case, I guess we got lucky that there was no sign of reproductive cancer.  Now he/she just has to get over "being outed".  :)
Dave


On 2/20/2021 10:16 AM, Rebecca Rose wrote:
Dave,

I have to say, having read your loving posts for years now, that my initial reaction to your "headline" was something like "Waddya mean Dave - of COURSE Monty is a good boy - no matter what he may have done!!!" - but I guess I should have known....definitely laughing here, and I thank you for that!!

My very first rabbit (this is back in the late 90s) was called Harriet for 10 years by my uncaring and neglectful neighbors - from whom I finally rescued this bun.  I'll never forget our first trip to the vet, when the vet got to the "undercarriage" and looked up at me and said "Um....this rabbit is a boy...".  In that instant, he became Harry.  And he lived happily with us for another 3 years, and was the sweetest, most loving bun ever.  I miss him so much.  (And I elected not to risk anesthesia for a neuter at his advanced age.)

-Becky and the Bunnies-


From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 7:01 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>
Subject: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 
Monty is a good girl, not a good boy.  I brought Monty to the vet this
week due to a concern about a watery eye, and the vet did a full exam
from head to toe, and discovered that there was never a neuter done (we
never had a reason to check and assumed we knew the history), so he
sexed Monty and determined that my fuzzball is a female.  There is no
evidence of a spay, so Monty might still be intact, in which case we are
not planning any surgery at this point - I've had Monty for almost 6
years now.

Perhaps this explains what happened with my attempts at bonding with
other bunnies.  I wasn't really expecting a gender identity issue with
my bunny, but... notice how I avoided the use of pronouns in reference
to Monty.  Maybe I can use the term "tomboy" or something.  :)

Monty's eye is fine, no indication of anything wrong, but I wanted to
err on the side of caution.

Dave







Chris Norlund
 

For what it's worth, I thought I'd jump in here about the spaying/age part of this thread.   Over the years I've had 5 rabbits  (plus a handful of my clients' rabbits who followed my advice to spay) --- that when I had them spayed they had cancer to some degree, and the spay saved their lives.  They ranged from 3-8yrs old, and had fairly normal recoveries, without any major incidents.  Yes--the oldest was 8 when I rescued her, and though she was likely no longer fertile, she still had the resultant changes that lead to her contracting advancing uterine cancer, and worsening pelvic inflammatory disease. Often the cancer and the inflammatory process that is quietly progressing is VERY VERY painful --  and yet rabbits hide it.  She didn't have significant outward symptoms yet (however belly was a bit enlarged, but lops often look like they have more roundish bellies).  But inside it was a M-E-S-S !!   But no evidence of metasticies!!     I felt so bad that she had been living with this for so long and quietly suffering.  So it was no surprise that in under 2 wks following her spay, she was a different rabbit!!  Her appetite and activity level increased, and she became bossy with her new big hunky boy-bunny-friend!!   I had full blood panel done pre-op, and we checked her over thoroughly for potential growths, lymph nodes, breathing issues, etc.  So it was deemed a calculated risk. Her remaining time was probably the best time of her life.  I would do it all over again. However if major cancerous changes were found on a very senior rabbit----I might go over DNR or mid-surgery euthanasia discussion with vet, and make my wishes known so the vet has authority to let a rabbit go if it she already has advanced cancerous lesions/growths.  It likely may have started to spread, and will only get worse, and is already merely tolerable.  Prolonging a painful life vs quality of life are very important factors to me.  
Tough decisions....  So it's good to have a bit of a contingency plan.

just my 2¢
Chris


On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:55 PM Nancy Ainsworth via groups.io <jtawired=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
She could always be Montie now, Dave. 
We took in a female bun some years back who we spayed and luckily caught her uterine cancer. She had all the female plumbing (obviously) but when she died we had a necropsy done and she had male parts, too -not all that uncommon, but a surprise all the same.
I can only imagine the look on your face when you found out your boy was a girl. :) 
Nancy



-----Original Message-----
From: David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
To: main@etherbun.groups.io; beckyatthebeach@...
Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2021 4:43 pm
Subject: Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy

The folks at the vet were trying to think up a "replacement" name for Monty, but I'm not planning on changing anything - she doesn't care that Monty is more of a male's name, and there's enough "baby" and "fuzzy butt" and "squishball" and of course, "bunny rabbit" in how I talk to her.  I'm still stuck using male pronouns (force of habit) and I don't think it matters except in medical/clinical terms.
I can't imagine how your neighbors didn't realize that Harry was an intact male - that's very easy to see (at least in my experience) but if they didn't care (or were entirely clueless)... How does one not notice the "churchbells" hanging down?  Of course, you have to let the bunny be a part of the family and run around to notice that.  I'm glad you took him and gave him a good life, no matter how much time was left.  My first bunny Q-Tip was never neutered, since I adopted him at around age 5 and we decided not to put him through the ordeal.
In Monty's case, I guess we got lucky that there was no sign of reproductive cancer.  Now he/she just has to get over "being outed".  :)
Dave


On 2/20/2021 10:16 AM, Rebecca Rose wrote:
Dave,

I have to say, having read your loving posts for years now, that my initial reaction to your "headline" was something like "Waddya mean Dave - of COURSE Monty is a good boy - no matter what he may have done!!!" - but I guess I should have known....definitely laughing here, and I thank you for that!!

My very first rabbit (this is back in the late 90s) was called Harriet for 10 years by my uncaring and neglectful neighbors - from whom I finally rescued this bun.  I'll never forget our first trip to the vet, when the vet got to the "undercarriage" and looked up at me and said "Um....this rabbit is a boy...".  In that instant, he became Harry.  And he lived happily with us for another 3 years, and was the sweetest, most loving bun ever.  I miss him so much.  (And I elected not to risk anesthesia for a neuter at his advanced age.)

-Becky and the Bunnies-


From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 7:01 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>
Subject: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 
Monty is a good girl, not a good boy.  I brought Monty to the vet this
week due to a concern about a watery eye, and the vet did a full exam
from head to toe, and discovered that there was never a neuter done (we
never had a reason to check and assumed we knew the history), so he
sexed Monty and determined that my fuzzball is a female.  There is no
evidence of a spay, so Monty might still be intact, in which case we are
not planning any surgery at this point - I've had Monty for almost 6
years now.

Perhaps this explains what happened with my attempts at bonding with
other bunnies.  I wasn't really expecting a gender identity issue with
my bunny, but... notice how I avoided the use of pronouns in reference
to Monty.  Maybe I can use the term "tomboy" or something.  :)

Monty's eye is fine, no indication of anything wrong, but I wanted to
err on the side of caution.

Dave








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Chris Norlund,
House Rabbit Educator 
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christofur2
 

I totally agree with Chris.   It is not too late to have her spayed.   We do not know the ages of most of the rabbits coming into the rescue and many of them are mature females.   As long as they are otherwise healthy, do not hesitate to spay.   One older female,  although nothing abnormal was found during the spay,  developed mammary cancer a few years later.   Luckily it was caught early and removed,  but if we decided not to spay her,  she would have had a very different outcome. 
Karen


Meg Brown
 

  I agree with Chris snd Karen.   My Rosie was almost 6 when she was spayed and found to have uterine cancer.   It did not spread.    Rosie lived a wonderful life, (Chris, you will remember her from my FB posts)
    She passed peacefully at home at 13.5 years old.   She was paraplegic during her last year, but so alert and loving.  My cat, Cowboy, loved being near her as well.

     Bella was found to have ovarian cancer when she was spayed as an elder.  
Our very skilled vet removed the tumors.  Bella lived for another 5 years and passed from kidney disease.

    I rescued a ten yo male with obvious testicular cancer.   He was neutered and recovered beautifully.

With all of these elder buns (and others over 5 yo), my vet and I agreed to go forward with their surgeries.   Their bloodwork was WNL.   We felt that the risk of cancer and other issues like pyometra was too great.
      
I always enjoy hearing about your sweet Monty🐰💓
   Sincerely,
     Meg

On Feb 26, 2021, at 10:25 AM, christofur2 <karen@...> wrote:

I totally agree with Chris.   It is not too late to have her spayed.   We do not know the ages of most of the rabbits coming into the rescue and many of them are mature females.   As long as they are otherwise healthy, do not hesitate to spay.   One older female,  although nothing abnormal was found during the spay,  developed mammary cancer a few years later.   Luckily it was caught early and removed,  but if we decided not to spay her,  she would have had a very different outcome. 
Karen


David L. Fisher
 

Well, I must admit - I was not intending on having Monty spayed at this point (not wanting to introduce any new stress) but the cancer issue has been on my mind.  My first bunny, Q-Tip, was never neutered (my vet and I chose not to put him through the st4ess and risk) and he lived happily enough, but I have no idea what killed him (no necropsy) or whether being intact had anything to do with it.  Sigh.

Now I'm giving serious consideration to having a spay done, just to be sure she's okay now and in the future.  I've had older bunnies that were fixed later in life before I adopted them, so I have a lot to think about.

Dave


On 2/26/2021 10:43 AM, Meg Brown wrote:
  I agree with Chris snd Karen.   My Rosie was almost 6 when she was spayed and found to have uterine cancer.   It did not spread.    Rosie lived a wonderful life, (Chris, you will remember her from my FB posts)
    She passed peacefully at home at 13.5 years old.   She was paraplegic during her last year, but so alert and loving.  My cat, Cowboy, loved being near her as well.

     Bella was found to have ovarian cancer when she was spayed as an elder.  
Our very skilled vet removed the tumors.  Bella lived for another 5 years and passed from kidney disease.

    I rescued a ten yo male with obvious testicular cancer.   He was neutered and recovered beautifully.

With all of these elder buns (and others over 5 yo), my vet and I agreed to go forward with their surgeries.   Their bloodwork was WNL.   We felt that the risk of cancer and other issues like pyometra was too great.
      
I always enjoy hearing about your sweet Monty🐰💓
   Sincerely,
     Meg

On Feb 26, 2021, at 10:25 AM, christofur2 <karen@...> wrote:

I totally agree with Chris.   It is not too late to have her spayed.   We do not know the ages of most of the rabbits coming into the rescue and many of them are mature females.   As long as they are otherwise healthy, do not hesitate to spay.   One older female,  although nothing abnormal was found during the spay,  developed mammary cancer a few years later.   Luckily it was caught early and removed,  but if we decided not to spay her,  she would have had a very different outcome. 
Karen


Rebecca Rose
 

I realized, sadly, after I made the remark about not neutering my first bunny (rescued when he was 10+) that I was STILL thinking of Monty as a boy!  My apologies, sweet Monty.

I, too, would lean toward spaying her now.  Similar to many of you, I once rescued 2 girls together (not sisters, but bonded) - as is often the case, their history was pretty much unknown - but they were likely between 4 and 5 years old.  After I'd gotten them settled in and examined for other issues, I went ahead and had them both spayed.  The vet actually called me, mid-surgery on one, to ask if she could possibly be pregnant (me:  NO!!), because she had a large mass in her uterus.  Vet removed it (I believe there were smaller areas of concern as well), and that bun is now between 8 and 9 y.o. and still doing great.  Although all of our experiences are "anecdotal", together they seem to indicate a strong likelihood of an unspayed female developing reproductive cancer in "middle age"- and actual statistics seem to bear this out too.

-Becky-




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2021 4:03 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; bustercharlie@... <bustercharlie@...>; karen@... <karen@...>
Subject: Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 

Well, I must admit - I was not intending on having Monty spayed at this point (not wanting to introduce any new stress) but the cancer issue has been on my mind.  My first bunny, Q-Tip, was never neutered (my vet and I chose not to put him through the st4ess and risk) and he lived happily enough, but I have no idea what killed him (no necropsy) or whether being intact had anything to do with it.  Sigh.

Now I'm giving serious consideration to having a spay done, just to be sure she's okay now and in the future.  I've had older bunnies that were fixed later in life before I adopted them, so I have a lot to think about.

Dave


On 2/26/2021 10:43 AM, Meg Brown wrote:
  I agree with Chris snd Karen.   My Rosie was almost 6 when she was spayed and found to have uterine cancer.   It did not spread.    Rosie lived a wonderful life, (Chris, you will remember her from my FB posts)
    She passed peacefully at home at 13.5 years old.   She was paraplegic during her last year, but so alert and loving.  My cat, Cowboy, loved being near her as well.

     Bella was found to have ovarian cancer when she was spayed as an elder.  
Our very skilled vet removed the tumors.  Bella lived for another 5 years and passed from kidney disease.

    I rescued a ten yo male with obvious testicular cancer.   He was neutered and recovered beautifully.

With all of these elder buns (and others over 5 yo), my vet and I agreed to go forward with their surgeries.   Their bloodwork was WNL.   We felt that the risk of cancer and other issues like pyometra was too great.
      
I always enjoy hearing about your sweet Monty🐰💓
   Sincerely,
     Meg

On Feb 26, 2021, at 10:25 AM, christofur2 <karen@...> wrote:

I totally agree with Chris.   It is not too late to have her spayed.   We do not know the ages of most of the rabbits coming into the rescue and many of them are mature females.   As long as they are otherwise healthy, do not hesitate to spay.   One older female,  although nothing abnormal was found during the spay,  developed mammary cancer a few years later.   Luckily it was caught early and removed,  but if we decided not to spay her,  she would have had a very different outcome. 
Karen


David L. Fisher
 

Actually, it was my understanding that unspayed females have an 85% chance of developing reproductive cancer by age 3, and Monty is at least twice that age.

I'm currently more concerned about her appetite, which seems to be affected by some gas - I've tried giving simethicone a couple times, and it seems to have reducred the amount of gurgling, but she's still acting a little off.  She may be going back to the vet sooner than we think if that doesn't improve.

Dave




On 2/28/2021 9:59 AM, Rebecca Rose wrote:
I realized, sadly, after I made the remark about not neutering my first bunny (rescued when he was 10+) that I was STILL thinking of Monty as a boy!  My apologies, sweet Monty.

I, too, would lean toward spaying her now.  Similar to many of you, I once rescued 2 girls together (not sisters, but bonded) - as is often the case, their history was pretty much unknown - but they were likely between 4 and 5 years old.  After I'd gotten them settled in and examined for other issues, I went ahead and had them both spayed.  The vet actually called me, mid-surgery on one, to ask if she could possibly be pregnant (me:  NO!!), because she had a large mass in her uterus.  Vet removed it (I believe there were smaller areas of concern as well), and that bun is now between 8 and 9 y.o. and still doing great.  Although all of our experiences are "anecdotal", together they seem to indicate a strong likelihood of an unspayed female developing reproductive cancer in "middle age"- and actual statistics seem to bear this out too.

-Becky-




From: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io> on behalf of David L. Fisher <dlf@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2021 4:03 PM
To: main@etherbun.groups.io <main@etherbun.groups.io>; bustercharlie@... <bustercharlie@...>; karen@... <karen@...>
Subject: Re: [Etherbun Main] Monty is NOT a good boy
 

Well, I must admit - I was not intending on having Monty spayed at this point (not wanting to introduce any new stress) but the cancer issue has been on my mind.  My first bunny, Q-Tip, was never neutered (my vet and I chose not to put him through the st4ess and risk) and he lived happily enough, but I have no idea what killed him (no necropsy) or whether being intact had anything to do with it.  Sigh.

Now I'm giving serious consideration to having a spay done, just to be sure she's okay now and in the future.  I've had older bunnies that were fixed later in life before I adopted them, so I have a lot to think about.

Dave


On 2/26/2021 10:43 AM, Meg Brown wrote:
  I agree with Chris snd Karen.   My Rosie was almost 6 when she was spayed and found to have uterine cancer.   It did not spread.    Rosie lived a wonderful life, (Chris, you will remember her from my FB posts)
    She passed peacefully at home at 13.5 years old.   She was paraplegic during her last year, but so alert and loving.  My cat, Cowboy, loved being near her as well.

     Bella was found to have ovarian cancer when she was spayed as an elder.  
Our very skilled vet removed the tumors.  Bella lived for another 5 years and passed from kidney disease.

    I rescued a ten yo male with obvious testicular cancer.   He was neutered and recovered beautifully.

With all of these elder buns (and others over 5 yo), my vet and I agreed to go forward with their surgeries.   Their bloodwork was WNL.   We felt that the risk of cancer and other issues like pyometra was too great.
      
I always enjoy hearing about your sweet Monty🐰💓
   Sincerely,
     Meg

On Feb 26, 2021, at 10:25 AM, christofur2 <karen@...> wrote:

I totally agree with Chris.   It is not too late to have her spayed.   We do not know the ages of most of the rabbits coming into the rescue and many of them are mature females.   As long as they are otherwise healthy, do not hesitate to spay.   One older female,  although nothing abnormal was found during the spay,  developed mammary cancer a few years later.   Luckily it was caught early and removed,  but if we decided not to spay her,  she would have had a very different outcome. 
Karen